>>40644 Had a little check: Moffat's scripts in Series 5-7 were edited by Lindsey Alford and Caroline Henry. They were often referred to as "Script Executives" rather than Script Editors, which if anything implies that they hold greater prestige under Moffat's tenure than they previously did.
>>40644 >>40646 Don't know anything about Doctor Who aside from Tumblr trickles (which frankly only makes me want to watch it less). Were these four episodes known for being particularly good or bad? I'm guessing it was the former, though pinning all the blame/praise women is an oversimplification.
>>40705 >I'm guessing it was the former, though pinning all the blame/praise women is an oversimplification.
It's not that they were women, it's that they were good editors, and good at reigning him in. They were good at their jobs. The fact that they were women was pointed out more as a jab at how poetic it is that the people who made his work watchable were women given how poor his ability to write female characters is noted for being lately.
>Billy Hanshaw mocked up the above opening credits sequence after Peter Capaldi’s casting was announced, and according to the A.V. Club Steven Moffat liked it so much he “ask[ed] the BBC’s graphics department to make an official version.” Said Moffat: “It was the only new title idea I’d seen since 1963. We got in touch with him, and said, okay, we’re going to do that one.”
>>40914 Capaldi doesn't work as well with the oddball goofiness that Eccleston/Tennant/Smith had, and so like the first half of the episode, with him acting that way didn't work all that great to me. (Although the bit about the eyebrows was pretty funny)
Really hoping that they start drifting away from the now near standard "last minute spontaneous resolution" that Doctor Who has turned into. I'm hoping that mystery woman at the end turns out a better series linking plot than the last three or four.
>>40934 I know its just really sad. Opening episode of New Doctor, yet has very little Doctor himself. I don't mind the Clue Crew really. Why do they reiterate every damn time what they are and have it take up a good portion of the episode. Believe we've been over their marriage three times now. Oh and that they are also ninjas.
I lost track of Doctor Who last mid-season, but the problems people are having with Steve Moffat aren't really different from what plagued Russell T Davies' run. Both had strong first season, but then slowly devolved in quality with each new season. Biggest problem with modern Doctor Who is portraying the Doctor as Space Jesus that everyone has to love regardless of what he's actually done. And than you have his companions that always fall for him, despite knowing him for five minutes. Donna's my favorite companion from the modern ere because she was just friends with the Doctor, and ironically, had the best chemistry for an actual relationship.
To get back to an earlier discussion here, the reason Moffat's episodes during Davies' run was stronger than his own run is simple: It's easier to produce high quality when you're only contributing one or two episodes. But I also have to ponder how much the quality on the show is impacted by BBC, because Moffat's Sherlock is obliviously stronger and tighter than his Doctor Who. (While Davies' Torchwood was just absolute shit, outside of Children of Earth.) I sometimes think Doctor Who being a kids show that thinks it's a adult program has limited the storytelling. Like how Amy could lose her child and then get over it like it's nothing.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear everyone is loving the new Doctor.
>>40937 And here we almost got it again, would have really liked to switch companions with that girl and it to be "well its not the first time I've traveled with a Solider." not that silly answer he gave.
Didn't see the episode myself, but I always enjoyed story premises of one character going in the mind of another. Happy to hear the writers are finally backing off on the Doctor/companion sexual chemistry.
>I'd go so far as to call this one of the best episodes of Doctor Who ever. There, I said it. Come at me, people.
>I like that, "deconstructing the heroism of the Doctor." Compared to this season, the themes of the Smith era were always in name only — "the Doctor must be forgotten (but not really)," "the Doctor's name is really important and should never be uttered (but it's okay if it does happen, really)." This season has been less explicit and more demonstrative with its theme (all for the better, I'd say). The Doctor performs acts of heroism but is himself still that scared little kid that never fit in with his own species.
>What makes this episode so compelling to me, and not unlike "Midnight" or "Silence in the Library," is that the villain is ultimately never seen. It never needs to be seen, really. What makes "Listen" even more impressive is that we didn't ultimately need a tangible antagonist with a weird name to sell the narrative. Fear itself, the concept, was enough. It wasn't some space dust that caused crazy hallucinations of some alter-Doctor-ego a la "Amy's Choice." It was simply fear... a very human emotion we rarely ascribe to heroes.
Still need to catch up here, but it sounds like the new season is heading in the right path, especially with everyone raving about "Listen." Even a friend I have that hasn't been loving the recent series said this episode nailed it.
>>41032 It's my favorite episode since Midnight. I really enjoyed Matt Smith's wacky adventures, but Capaldi's sort of more serious Doctor is going well. I like him better than Eccleston and Tennant already.
I don't think calling this a rehash is at all fair. It's certainly in the same vein, but it's a pretty effective vein so I can't blame him for mining it some more. And it's extremely different from all three.
I'm actually enjoying this season quite a lot (even Robots of Sherwood which is definitely the weakest episode so far was good for some silly fun) although I'm a bit nervous that the metaplot is going to be crap. It's not very promising thus far.
>>41034 I wasn't necessarily saying Listen was bad, just... worse for having the theme explored already. It was actually really good at setting up the tension, and was really well shot, but personally it suffered, particularly in the cold open, for being another story about things we can't really perceive right.
It tried to be a fucking morality play but it was so hackneyed and unfair. Clara was fucking right at the end. Stupid, cheap, pathetic patronizing bullshit is what it was. "Oh, I can't help in this situation when I obviously have extra information that would affect all of humanity's decision but fuck you, you need to decide your own future without all of the known information" WHAT THE FUCK? Humanity made the "wrong decision" to want to kill the egg, but that was only because Earth was given limited information that the Doctor could have easily given. Does he think an uninformed decision could be the "right" decision? WHY did he have faith that Clara would make the "right" choice when she was as in the dark as the rest of humanity?
Oh, the "egg" disintegrated, convenient that billions of tons of rocks can simply disintegrate. Oh the new monster isn't going to attack, oh it LAID A NEW FUCKING MOON? SERIOUSLY? It laid a moon with what, the same exact mass as the original moon? FUCKING CONVENIENT BULLSHIT.
Moffat has always been terrible, we've only just started to realize it because he's stuck around to long, he only actually has like, twelve episode that he just keeps remaking, a vague war, the choice to kill something that's probably not bad, whacky adventure that turns super cearial, etc lather, rinse, repeat.
I mean fuck sake the episode is called kill the moon and he cannot go the whole episode with referencing the episode lets kill Hitler since its complete recycle.
First 12 Doctor Episode really put me off. Same fucking stupid god damn interactions with those three. Their interactions were established a long time ago Brute Butler, Ninja Mystery Wives Duo. Yet spend most the episode repeating that relationship.
And the base plot, fuck my head that was dim cyberman knockoff. And the Giant T-Rex topped it all I don't care if Vassy can wave it off with "I was there dear, I know how big" Makes my head hurt.
>>41101 My friend was just tweeting about how overtly critical fans are being with the latest season. She's been loving it so far. I still haven't caught up with anything, so I can't comment on the latest episodes.
But, honestly, modern Doctor Who has always been a bumpy ride in quality since season one. I think, when a Doctor Who episode gets something right, it ends up overshadowing all the mediocre episodes.
>>41101 I still like it. I have criticisms, but I still enjoy it. I haven't been able to watch the past few episodes as I don't have BBC America or a computer, just a mobile device and the mobile quality is a bit crap. I am liking Capaldi though. Yeah, the "not understanding humans" thing is a bit stupid at this point, but I still enjoy his performance and he channels my favorite Doctors; Three, Six, Seven, and Nine. I'm also really liking Clara and her character development.
>>41180 Yea that is understood, its just random episodes tying to that background plot of Caretaker or something. Its not doing itself any favors. They should have gone back to the older style of episodes set into arcs. Running background theme is find but the way it is set up. It doesn't seem to matter at all.
Wow I did not think much of this season's meta-plot at all but my mind just got changed enormously. I thought the big reveal twist of the episode (although still well-executed) was a bit ruined by the episode preview going CYBERMEN CYBERMEN CYBERMEN , but then it turned out that the Cybermen twist was just a red herring!
>>41253 >what the heck was up with the science in Kill the Moon
The writer just wrote some off-the-cuff pseudo-science that made no sense just to get through it, made a note to come back and fix it, and then for some reason they decided to shoot with his first draft. That's my best guess.
The trees one didn't bother me so much because it made no pretense of being scientific.
>>41252 they dropped the ball putting cybermen all over the promos. the whole sneaky hints at cybermen and then "i feel like im missing something" then BAM the eye-doors and musical sting would have been the greatest OHSHIT moment of this series (And probably last one too)
>>41630 Sure it is, because I had fun watching RTD era, as Moffat came on the scene my fun lessened until I re-watched the Christmas special where Capauldi came in and and I literally feel asleep because it was so unbelievably lame and boring so boring oh god.
Then Capauldi's season just had me pissed because HOLY FUCK IS IT DIRECTIONLESS, I'm not even sure I finished watching it, like I remember parts but the entire season was a fog of sleepy anger for me, which given how the Doctor was written was apparently what he was feeling too.
I really firmly disagree. There are great episodes in the RTD era for sure, but when it was bad? Oh my god it was bad on a level that the Moffat era could not possibly hope to reach. The worst I've ever felt in any Moffat era episode is bored. Some (and, frankly, a lot of them towards the end) RTD episodes had me jumping out of my chair in anger at just how bad they were.
I'm pretty well ready for Moffat to move on, and he has his flaws for sure, but either your idea of 'fun crap' is vastly different from mine or you're really whitewashing some of the seriously low points of his run in your memory.
>>41676 >Some (and, frankly, a lot of them towards the end) RTD episodes had me jumping out of my chair in anger at just how bad they were.
When it came to creating "epic" sci-fi storylines, RTD would crumble hard. His best stories were usually the most reserved in scale. Even when his characters would be unbelievably cynical or jerk-ish.
Somewhat related, I still can't believe how hard RTD shit the bed with Torchwood. First and second seasons were "meh," but Children of Earth had real promise. Granted, the final episode of Children of Earth fucked it all up, but it doesn't diminish the dark and compelling atmosphere the miniseries had going. Miracle Day, however, was a serious regression. The series became nothing more than a melodramatic cartoon.
>>41679 I haven't seen the third series, although I'm told that's the best one. Having suffered through the first two series of Torchwood I wasn't keen to subject myself to further crimes against television out of misplaced brand loyalty.
>>41756 It's like a teenager on deviantArt's conception of what "adult" is supposed to be, it's the most embarrassingly childish vision of "mature" I've ever seen committed to screen with an actual budget and everything.
And then there was Sarah Jane Adventures, which was the exact opposite: a grown-up and intelligent children's show. And it was awesome! To this day I'm still baffled they were made by the same people.
I'm enjoying the show, especially this past season. I have my complaints about moffatt and my criticisms, but I don't hate the moffatt run or the Davies run (just certain episodes in them). I look forward to series 9. Also, it's probably never going to happen, but I would love if Big Finish got the rights to New Who.
It's not a one to one but since the showrunner inevitably winds up writing a lot of scripts, I think it's for the best that we go with a fellow who has actually demonstrated the ability to write a really good one.
To wit: Moffatt's writing has weaknesses that weren't apparent until his plotting was literally everywhere, but Gattiss hasn't demonstrated any notable chops at all in almost a decade of writing for the show.
The only reason she died is because she did something pointless and stupid - and obviously, brazenly pointless and stupid, to the extent that it beggars belief that someone as intelligent as her wouldn't spot it as pointless and stupid unless she's literally just taking the big risk for its own sake. That suggests some deep pathology to her risk-taking that isn't supported by any of the other episodes of her run. Her justification for not consulting the Doctor about it felt particularly thin.
I can't even say that she did a stupid thing because the plot demanded it, because the plot pointedly did NOT demand it. It would be easier to swallow if the stupid thing she did had contributed in some way to the mystery's resolution in addition to getting her killed, but no: They solve the problem with time to spare. The chronolock switch is only relevant insofar as it leads to Clara's death.
There's a lot to like about the episode, even after the other shoe drops, mostly in Peter Capaldi and Maisie Williams' performances, but the blind idiocy of Clara's death wrecks the episode almost entirely.
(Also, I'm not the only one who felt that the shot of the bird flying into her was a bit tacky? You know the one that was basically jumping up and down screaming 'look at how big her boobs are, we highlighted them for you! Last chance for a wank before it's necrophilia, adolescent boys!')
Clara will show up in the last (proper) episode of the season, “Hell Bent”, so maybe there will be at least some attempt at explaining why she did it there. At any rate, Clara's done as a character after this season, so no more worrying about Moffat's favorite Mary Sue!
>>44269 Personally, I'm going to say I hope it isn't Clara, but another iteration of "The Impossible Girl" and that the Doctor just kinds of lets her be, and have a life that doesn't end in her getting horribly murdered in service of him.
Like, her death just now was so utterly pointless that it'd be nice to have a new one that just doesn't get involved at all.
If her appearance is anything more than Karen Gillan's appearance in Eleven's regeneration scene, then this episode was a massive headfake from the writers and gets upgraded from 'sort of shit' to 'catastrophic tropical shitstorm'.
Y'know, guys, this pathological jadedness gets kind of tiring thread-in thread-out. We've had a surprisingly solid season with a Capaldi Doctor who's loosened up a great deal and become genuinely fun to watch, and a companion send-off that was both touching and shocking in its finality, and all you lot can do is whinge about that Dastardly Moffat and his Mary Sues.
Like, can you lot give the unbridled cynicism a holiday for one fucking episode?
>>44274 This series hasn't been bad by any means, apart from Sleep No More and what I discussed above, but I'm not sure there's been a set of incredible episodes yet. There's been some great material (The Doctor and Davros' conversation, the whole setup of Under The Lake, Maisie Williams' performance) but it always comes with a caveat - The Sorceror's Apprentice wastes half its runtime on herrings so red they border on non sequiturs, The Girl Who Died is a bit weak and the lionman subplot in The Woman Who Lived is obvious and boring, Before the Flood's plotting gets muddled towards the end and the Fisher King's costume didn't look great walking around outside. The whole series has felt in need of refinement.
It's certainly better than, say, series four. Thank fuck.
>>44304 Honestly, it was a pretty strong script, stronger than most in the last like, 3 seasons? And it probably was strong from being written with defined limits - Doctor is alone, Doctor is in a boobytrap castle, video game rules apply.
>>44305 Someone on another forum quipped that Moffat must have been playing Amnesia recently.
That's a good point about the limits helping the episode. Moffat excelled when discipline was imposed on him, so in imposing discipline on himself with this episode he's been able to tap into the qualities that qualified him for showrunner in the first place.
That was a really good episode. The only weak thing about it was that it was hooked really strongly into the 'hybrid' thing, which is probably the weakest 'wink-wink-nudge-nudge look at us subtly namedrop something from the finale' in the history of New Who. This didn't hurt it a lot, because ultimately it really doesn't matter WHAT the secret is, just that it's some kind of secret that can absolutely never be told, but did nudge it down a little.
Well, that could've been worse. But like so much of Capaldi's run so far it just kind of fell short of completely clicking because the Clara/12 relationship was never written strongly enough to really feel genuine in their first season together.
I really hope that come the next season, they work harder at developing a proper connection with whoever the new companion or companions end up being.
>>44343 I'd be down for it too, but judging from the reactions I've seen on this thread a contingent of fans would likely burn Auntie to the ground if Clara got a single millisecond more screentime.
I don't think it stuck the landing, but DW finales almost never do. I did enjoy the Doctor clearing house on post-Time War Gallifrey, it was satisfying to see some long-overdue justice served on a pack of genocidal pricks.
>>44340 Well, I just marathoned it and while it was better than last season, I still wish the show wouldn't drop the ball as often as it does.
Ashildr/Me was a more interesting character than either Capaldi's Doctor or Clara. I dunno if it's because I marathoned the entire season but they kept repeating that whole "Clara acts reckless like the Doctor" and the response "I have a duty of care" thing between them so many times and it got repetitive and boring fast.
I'm pretty sure the Duty of Care line only happens twice, although I could be forgetting one.
The 'Clara becoming the Doctor' thing was actually started last season with Flatliners. I think it mostly worked as an arc but there were definitely a few points where they kind of shoehorned a mention of it in in an obvious way.
I think the real problem is that they'd already did such a shit job of establishing Clara's character in the first two seasons or so that she was kind of a nebulous blob when they got started on it, so they needed to checkpoint it constantly instead of assuming the viewers would remember her as having consistent character traits from episode to episode.
>>44998 Crossposting from another forum I post on, where it was suggested that Chibnall might not involve himself so much in the episode-writing and adopt a higher-level editorial oversight approach given his...erm..."less-than-well-received" contributions to the Doctor Who canon (note - said forum prides itself on elevated discourse, so feel free to translate "very cautious" as "FUCK WHY"):
Put me down as very cautious about Chris Chibnall as showrunner. As wise as I think a hands-off approach is given his track record, it could lead to a loss of focus and narrative drift over the course of the series. RTD and The Moff had their supporters and their detractors (and you could easily do a 1:1 straight swap between the two groups) but they both had very distinct editorial styles that easily defined the show. I'm not sure Chibnall has the same gravitas to provide that kind of signature.
I was hoping some other figure would emerge in the last few years of Moffat's reign, since Chibnall was the "default choice" for Moffat's successor from the very beginning. Unfortunately no other writer has stamped their personality on successive scripts the way Moffat did in the RTD years (besides Gatiss, arguably, and he was never going to be showrunner). I think we've all felt that it was high time for Moffat to move on, but I fear this latest move will lead to Doctor Who just cruising along on autopilot until the ratings collapse and it's put back in the shed for another decade.
>>45004 Yeah, we don't really go for the "writer's room" approach that American shows do, it's usually a couple people writing an entire series. That's do-able in the UK where series are usually 4-8 episodes long, but that's impractical for the sprawling 22-episode seasons US shows get.
That said, Doctor Who is unique amongst British shows in having a "writer's room" setup (its seasons are considerably longer than most other shows on British telly), so a hands-off approach would be perfectly achievable if somewhat unprecedented. Nu!DW was conceived from the very beginning with an unusually "American" setup to ape the cult US shows like Buffy or X-Files that were experiencing strong success on BBC2 in the years prior.
Though part of that is the blood from a stone funding problem. Doctor Who is still one of the more regular shows BBC puts out. Cripes Sherlock to reference Is about two to three years apart and that is only Three Episodes a Series (Season) and after the special it won't be back again till next year.
>>45015 Well this is Austerity Britain, we're not exactly made of cash.
One advantage to having incredibly short series is that each episode gets a lot more loving care and attention than your typical American episode. Compare the production value of your average episode of CSI to your average episode of Silent Witness. They're both fundamentally silly police procedurals, but the silly British police procedural just feels "classier" than the silly American police procedural.
Of course it all breaks down when you get your HBOs and your Showtimes and your Netflixes where the shows shrink to British-type lengths and the difference in funding utterly crushes our domestic efforts.
>>47647 Mood music from Auntie seems to be "it's time for a lady." I've heard that being the likely reason for picking Chris Chibnall as Moffat's replacement, as despite blighting the franchise with the existence of "Cyberwoman," his stint on Broadchurch at least demonstrates an aptitude for writing characters without Y chromosomes that his predecessor has conspicuously lacked.
Good the fear of The Doctor just becoming another River makes me cringe.
Though I do worry how they'll do this and keep The Doctor being a unique character since we've had a lot of female characters over the years who being a Time Lord or not have been played up as The Doctors equals.
Wonder what age they'd go to. I know some name that have been kicked about but going too famous means you are settling in for a short run Doctor.
Personally I'd am for lower level famous and somewhat quirky but with an acid streak. Harken back to the punchy Doctors.
Side note I vote Peter Capaldi to play Flintheart Glomgold in the new Ducktales so we can have two Scots/Time Lords barking at each other.
>>47871 Eh strikes me about the same as we had with Matt Smith. Nobody being trilled with him as we only had those early photos of him in dark clothes looking very broody.
As for lady things I'd rather just have the deal with that later after being thoroughly planned. Because doing it now under pressure its just going to either be short and expensive or a slow motion train wreck.
>>48068 I was actually surprised how "Doctor-y" she looked in the promo. It's an intangible thing to nail, so I'm definitely optimistic. I've fallen off the Who bandwagon for a while and this is a good excuse to catch up.
>>48065 On the other hand, Chibnall is also responsible for critically-acclaimed "Nordic Noir" series Broadchurch, which suggests he's learnt lessons from the age of "Cyberwoman."
>>417733 All they needed was quality control, and someone (who is either the creator or a close friend) to be a visionaire in control. Someone with a vision of what the show should be, overseeing the show. But no. And fans don't care, cause "next episode might be good tho".
One good thing is there is a YTP channel that does nothing but DH poops.
The next Doctor Who will be a black dude. I mean suppose after making DW a woman it was the only way they could top it. Wonder how many more Doctors there will be before they stop trying to keep the series alive.
>>417815 You know they'll do a real reboot before we have shit like "The 38th Doctor". Hell; once all the actors for the original 7 are dead, you know they'll hire lookalikes and just do new stories with those versions of the Doctor. I'm genuinely surprised they haven't already done it with the First.